Confessions We Didn’t Plan to Share Because Stigma Stops Here

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hey guys, we are getting ready to listen to this episode, and I just want to give a little bit of a trigger warning that we didn't know where it was going when we started. So we do get into some heavier topics today, um, specifically about sexual abuse. And if that's a trigger for you, if that's not something you're ready to hear about, we just want to let you know that we do talk a little bit about that today. Um there's no shame, there's no stigma. Um, but that is our topic today, and uh it comes up fast, and uh it was unexpected for us, and so we didn't give it a chance to give a trigger warning, so we want you to have that now. Um, but we're really happy how the episode turned out and we're grateful you're listening. I'm Steph Moore, I'm with Casey Bryant.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

And Casey's had a big week. I've had a big week, it has been crazy. I went from zero to a thousand in one day as far as not having a job to going full time, and I am so tired.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

So not only full time, I mean what you're doing requires a little bit of travel.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Well, I've been traveling to many different places, and like today I was up in Dayton, almost Dayton area. So it's it's been it's been crazy. It's great. I'm super excited, but I'm also, as I said, really tired.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

So if you want to know more about Casey's job, um I did not tell her I was doing this, but I realized we have never plugged your blog.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

Oh, yes. Well, I it was uh that's always been my side gig, but I didn't want to make it a big deal on this because it's not.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

But I appreciate it. You're a beautiful writer, and thank you. I w we touch on a lot of things that we talk about here. You say from your perspective there, but it's worth a follow, so why don't you tell everybody where that is?

SPEAKER_02 1:49

Oh, it's um K C the letter or yes, the letters K in the letter C, Bryant.com, and it's my blog, and I just wrote an article about um my struggles of five and a half months of trying to find a job. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

And she's got lots of articles on there, but I do have lots of articles on there. But anyway, I just realized we'd never talked about it.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Well, thank you. I appreciate that. So yeah. Well, how was your week?

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Oh, uh it was yeah, I got nothing to complain about. Oh, that's great. You know, snow day, you know, so that was nice. Do they have a snow day today? We had a snow day today. Okay, I didn't know. We didn't yeah, we did not get called off. But it's fine. Um, so it was nice to kind of wake up and I it was a work from home day for me.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

So Yeah, Faith was pissed. My daughter. She I woke her up and I'm like, you gotta get ready for school. What? We don't have a snow nope, welcome to a school.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

It really was kind of disappointing. I mean, this so locally they had said we were gonna get like three to five inches tonight, and I think it was really closer to one. Yes. In fact, if it tells you how little snow we got, I woke up to my neighbor using a leaf blower to clear the snow out of its driveway.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

That's that's that's the best kind of snow when you use a leaf.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

If you are my neighbor and you're listening to this, 8 a.m. is honestly too early to bring out your leaf blower. I'm just saying. Well, I was in the school day and you're like, let him let him sleep a let him sleep a little bit. Now, my daughter's room is like the closest to that house, and she slept till noon today, so clearly it didn't bother her.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

No, we because we live right next to the elementary school, and so they were out at five or six in the morning trying to get everything clear for everybody to come. So I I heard it right away.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

I did I did visit your your neck of the woods school this weekend. And for a dance competition. Yes, we had our first dance competition. And they did great. They won their category. We only competed one dance, they competed hip hop, they won. Um which, you know, it was it was exciting. But man, it's been a while since I've done the whole dance competition circuit, and those are long days. They are very long days. But how was your your day in my day in your neck of the woods? Uh she gave me Casey. I actually texted her, I was like, I don't know where I am and I need caffeine. But you said walking distance. And I said walking distance because the parking situation at that school is abysmal. Yes, I'm sorry. Um so I'm like, I don't want to lose my parking spot. But you told me was hidden chapters? Yes, hidden chapters. Is that what it's called? Um little bookstore. Oh my god, they were so kind. Those girls in there were so sweet. They were all decorating. Apparently, you guys were having like a like a Christmas walk that night.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

I mean, when you talk about Hallmark holiday, like that happens in my town.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

I kind of wish I would have known I would have prepared better. I would have been like, I'm just coming over. But she didn't have heat this week, guys. I did you I did not when you call I did not have heat. It's all fixed now? It everything is fixed. Oh, that's good. Okay, so we are going to like f move forward a little bit, and we had someone contact us this week asking about um kind of stigma and shame and wanted to know kind of our thoughts, kind of our experiences with that. And I thought, why not? That's a really good topic. So specifically, this person was asking about, and hey Jay. Um I won't say your name or all of your situation, but uh You just did.

SPEAKER_02 5:03

I said Jay. Oh, okay, like the letter, not like the name. She knows who she is.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

Okay, great. Okay, well, I don't know. Didn't know you just called her out. Well, she specifically was talking about how she's had some grief and loss and transition in her life, and you know that seems to be something we all we deal with around here. Yes. Well, not just here. I mean, it's just a fact of life. Yeah, that's normal life. Um and she has recently gone on um medication, um, specifically anxiety, depression in that nature. And I did reach out to her, you know, when she reached out to me, I immediately responded of like, girl, you are so not alone. So I thought you and I could talk about a little bit our experiences specifically with that, and then just really kind of hitting on the stigma.

SPEAKER_02 5:47

Oh, yeah. So But just beyond medication.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Uh yeah, beyond medication. We're gonna I'm gonna touch a little bit on what she said because that was her question. But like we're just gonna get on to stigma and shame and I was gonna say all that good stuff, although none of it is good.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

But I don't know, but for for me, um God created in my mind brilliant people who could be doctors, yes, who could create medications that could help us when we're unbalanced. And I think that, you know, with with anxiety and depression, there is a truly a mental imbalance. And yes, I know people you pray, you should pray, talk to God, but there is also wonderful medication, and I know that because I've been on it. Same. So when did you do you mind sharing? I have no I have no problem sharing it. Um I went on it after my second child, after I had torn, and I did not know how bad I was. I didn't even know realize that I had postpartum depression. Um but we went in for our for my like the six-week checkup, and they and the doctor said, How are you doing? And I said, I'm fine. And Doug was with me because he I now I realize he wanted to make sure he was at the appointment. And when he should be listening, you're a smart man. Yeah, he he really is because I mean he he saved me because what when I said I'm fine, he said no. And that's the only thing he said. And I just kind of started crying and zoned out, and then I kind of heard bits and pieces of their conversation between Doug and the doctor talking, my OB, and you know, saying she doesn't get out of bed, nothing to do with the kids. He's like, I could come home and tell her I wanted a million dollars, and she would say, whatever. He's like, She was just not good, and the doctor looked at me at that point in time, crying hysterically, and she said, Ann, you are going on Prozac, so you will no longer be nursing. So there was that part of me like, okay, so I'm getting medication, but also at the same time I'm no longer nursing, so you then you feel like a failure, also.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:49

But also at the same time, yeah, I was kind of happy to have my body back.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

I get all of that.

SPEAKER_02 7:55

So it's like this mashed confusion of you're trying to be the perfect mom and you're trying to do all the things, but you're my body, my mental state, everything was just not working as it should be.

unknown 8:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

And that's totally normal. And I had no idea. It wasn't until somebody, my husband, pointed it out, but also he used to piss me off. That isn't gonna be my word today. He used to piss me off so much because even though I was on Prozac to help with the with the depression, it didn't always I did I still had bad days. Yeah. I still had bad days. And on those days when I had bad days, he would look at me and be like, Did you remember take your pill? Uh-huh. This is all pre-Jesus. This is all this is all before we came to Christ. Oh, I used to get so mad at him and be like, no, don't don't even talk to me. Because you have no idea what it's what that is that situation is like to give birth your hormones, everything. And and that that was that was my of of my experience of when I had to go on medication. And I was very grateful for it. Okay. It didn't always help, but I was grateful for it.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

I will share uh my place with that as well. But when you just said my word, I forgot we forgot. We noticed last week, so Casey and I were both listening back to the episode, and I said, We say 100% too much. And she was like, Yeah, but oversharing is our thing. I was like, I don't have a problem with the oversharing, but we say the last week we said 100%. I think I lost track. I mean you could make it a drinking game. Go back and listen, and I was like, oh, that we say that too much. And then I was thinking back to other episodes, and for whatever reason, there is just like a word that we just repeat back to each other over and over again. It was fine. Like we said fine. Fine, fine so much. The first week, I think we said little bit. And then even in our first reel, I think we said little bit like four times. And I'm like, where does this come from? We just get stuck on a word.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

We get stuck. So um I hope it's not I hope it's not pissed, but I've just now said it three times.

SPEAKER_00 10:03

So that will be the new thing. Can you find the word that we're fixating on? I I don't even I don't even realize that we're doing it, but when we listen back, I'm like, oh my gosh. Because we're so judgy of ourselves. Oh my gosh. Anyway. That's part of two. So one of the things that um my story with medication um was back when I guess I'd had, after I'd had my second baby, a little bit um had time had passed, and I just realized that I was sitting in a room with my family and they're laughing, and I'm like, I didn't feel bad. I also couldn't experience any joy. I was like, nothing. So you you you realized it yourself? I realized it myself, and I'm like, uh there's there's a little bit of an issue. I was just I was I was pretty disconnected, just unable to really feel the depths of anything. Yeah. And I mean, I was obviously feeling more on the sad side. Um, but I mean I I I can't say I was feeling suicidal. I can't tell you I was feeling I just was like I felt a real disconnect from my ability to have any range of real emotions. And I ended up going on several different rounds of medication of trying to find the right one.

SPEAKER_02 11:20

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

Um really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:23

Which I hear that's fairly normal. I was lucky, I went on Prozac, and then I I was good. But you had to try different ones out.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

They yeah, I would I would I did LexaPro, I did Well Butrin, I did one more. At any rate, after a certain point, I f my doctor weaned me off. I felt like I was doing a lot better. Um, but it took a lot of tweaking. And I just the same way that I would say now of doing a GLP one, like I don't have shame about it. Like if there was if your body's not working, your body's not working. Yes. And if that is a mental thing and you need a counselor, if that is a physical chemical disconnection in your brain and your body that says, you know, I mean, we wouldn't tell someone like if your blood pressure is not working, like, we're gonna need you to pray that, you know, we're gonna we're gonna need you to pray for that all hands on, you know. Um, not that prayer has always been a part of everything that I have done. But the same thing that you said, there's nothing that the Lord hasn't provided in the brains and of people who have more talent than I do that can diagnose and make modern medicine and have established, you know, counseling, you know, like they have made people with wisdom and and medicine to be able to speak into and um change our body chemistry to be able to handle things if it's just for a short season or for a long season.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

And I I just wanna to preface this this is just our opinion.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:57

We we are not experts, not doctors. These this is just our opinion based upon our own experiences with medication specifically.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

I will say I think everybody needs counseling.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

Yes. I do I do agree with that. Everyone should should talk to somebody. And I think that right there is a huge stigmatism because depending on when you grew up, we've touched on this a little bit and and how your parents were. There there was just this you do not talk about what's going on personally in your life at all.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Well, I had shared a story on an episode we didn't air. Oh, yeah. Where I kind of talked about kind of my first foray into counseling, and it was with uh a teacher of mine who was going through a counseling program, and I think I was in sixth grade, and I was dealing with some things that had come to light in my childhood that I paused because I was like, ooh, do I do I talk about it? Do I not talk about it? But it's at the forefront of my brain. I I say you go where the lore takes takes you. So um This is your story. Yeah. And I don't want to get like fully into all of it. Um, but I will say if we're gonna talk about stigma and shame. Yeah, great. Um my biggest shame uh growing up was that I was a victim of sexual abuse. And I would have given you that trigger warning in the beginning. I didn't actually but I did not know. So I will probably go back in and have Elena add that in. Yeah, it's great. Um, but for me it was a one-time thing. It was not ongoing. Thank you, Jesus. Um, but I had buried it. Yeah. I had buried it. And as I started to go through puberty, it just was forefront of my brain. Like memories were flashing back. I remembered things that were it was like having an out-of-body experience, to be honest with you. I'm having memories of things that are too real to not to not fully remember.

SPEAKER_03 14:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Um I was meeting with the counselor who was also my teacher at the time, and my parents gave the okay, you can meet with her, you can counsel her, we go through this whole thing. And you're in grade school. I'm I'm sixth grade at this point. In sixth grade. And Casey's already heard this because we did record this and we decided it was just too tender at the time and it wasn't ready to be shared. Um so with that, I was having all of these memories flood back to me. Uh as I mentioned, I'm going through puberty, and I think everybody who's listening has gone through that awkward stage of your body changing and starting having surging hormones of all of the things. And it was like I realized I was broken before I even had a chance to like move into that stage of my life. And I was terrified to tell anybody. Yeah. And even I get through this, I go through this counseling process, and I assume, okay, well, she's probably gonna tell my mom. I don't need to talk about it with her. Yeah. And for right or for wrong, that was how I lived the rest of my life. I never sat down until to tell her these things until we recorded the podcast. And I told my mom, hey, you might not want to listen this week. And then we made the decision to not air it. Yeah. Um and in that moment I did tell my mom. You did? I did. How how did she Can I just tell you? I mean, just the Lord, I mean because in the episode that we had previously recorded, you said, Does your mom know? I I yeah. You asked me that specifically. I remember that. Because I can tell you that I never came out and told my mom. Yeah. First of all, my memories of back and when this happened is he told me, Don't tell anyone. Oh. And when you're five, yeah, you listen. Because something dirty, in your opinion, just happened. But also it is a really confusing feeling. And now you you you innately know that that wasn't right, but also when you know you've done something bad, because you at least for me, I owned it like I did the wrong thing. Oh, absolutely. And moving into any space as a 12-year-old person who's coming to terms with this, who's trying to understand their own body, they're trying to understand and navigate relationships, and honestly, now understanding and navigating why I had trust issues. And I also had issues of feeling unprotected. Yeah. And not just from my mom and dad, because this is not their fault. No. Not there's not one iota of of shame or blame that I put onto them. But I I was guilty of feeling, why didn't you protect yourself? Why didn't you know better? Why didn't you stop it? Why, God, why didn't you open that bathroom door?

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Why did you allow this to happen to me? And why do I feel like I'm so broken now? And so all of these things are swirling in my head. Fast forward many, many years, up until a few weeks ago, um, my ma I texted my mom and I'd said she was gonna pick my son up from school, and I said, He left something in the car. Do you mind swinging by my work to come and get it? And she said, sure. I walk out there and um she's like, Well, it's your lunchtime, you want to go out to lunch. And that wasn't the plan. She was just gonna pick something up, and I just instinctively got in the car. We go and we have lunch, and she's asking me about the podcast, and I realized like we've never really had an honest conversation about how she feels about any of this. And she was a little worried because that was after the episode that I said soaking. Oh, and her friend had said some questions, and I said, Okay, here's the deal. This is what I said, this is what I meant, but this is what I'm saying, I this is what I said upcoming, and this I this is probably gonna be hurtful, and I don't need you to know details because I don't need details to be out there. No, there's nothing. I don't need to relive it. No. Um all that being said, she just said she goes, I'm sorry. I I wish I would have known. What that would have changed in the moment, I don't know. Yeah, but I do think that I could have let go of the shame of sexual sin that I carried with me forever because I said I owned it like it was my own problem. Yeah. Like I played a role, like I invited it. And and I didn't. No, no, absolutely you didn't invite it. So, I mean, if you listen last week, you know, when I talked about um uh growing up in Utah and growing up just in really conservative Christian um and I will always say that sex is designed for marriage. You'll never hear me say anything different than that. Um But we would be naive and stupid to say that that isn't everybody's story. Casey's looking at me like that was my story.

SPEAKER_02 20:15

I I mean honestly, and what okay, so I'm gonna tell a story. Yeah. I don't I think you know part of it. Yeah. Uh my my husband does not know this, so I don't know if he's going to listen to this or not. Because for me, uh one there is such astigmatism with sexual assault. Yeah. There is such a sh shame factor of it, and one in four, one in three women are sexually assaulted. So um but for me, which I was, and it took me a long time to realize it, because I was 20 at a party, I passed out, I was very sexually active already at that point in time. Um I woke up with someone with my pants down and someone on top of me. And I was trying to orient myself to to this. And the unfortunate thing is I know this person, I still see them every day. But for for me, for a very long time, I I thought that it was my fault. Well, I'm the one who got drunk, I'm the one who passed out, I'm the one who was sexually active and everybody knew that, so you know, w it it's you know, so it's my fault and it's no big deal. And in in fact, I was when I talked to somebody about it, I was told, well, that's just who they are. That's just that's just what they do. And I was like, oh, okay. So so it was it wasn't me. It wasn't my fault. And um I it took me a long time for me to say, oh no, this that that wasn't my fault. And even though I was sexually active, even though I was drunk and I was passed out and I probably maybe was doing d you know, whatever, like I I did not deserve that.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

No.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

And and that was assault. But I think we as as well, me, I think Casey as a woman, but I will still categori like I still fight that. I still will sometimes think, oh no, no. No, that was just me having, you know, even though I didn't want it, you know, uh good time. But I it wasn't. It was it it was very jarring to wake up like that.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

Well, first, let me just say it's really brave you just shared that.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

I know I've never re I've never told that story. My hut my my husband does not know the story. I probably should tell him before before this hair.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

Okay, to tell you this the clock is running. Um yeah. Um Yeah, neither of us, this is not what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

Well no, this is not where we were talking. Why have I never told my husband? Because I'm freaking embarrassed. Because you're embarrassed. I'm so embarrassed that I put myself in a situation situation. I'm embarrassed that it happened to me. I'm embarrassed that I came off across as a girl who was quote unquote promiscuous, easy, whatever you want to say. And And I've called all myself these because of because of my past. So we're I it's interesting because our, you know, we always say this, our backgrounds are different, but yet we have similar stories and just are a little just a little different depending on and I will also say in high school, although I it didn't get to that point, I also experienced a time that it went way further than I was comfortable with.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

And I was saying no. Man. And I know it and we obviously like if you're around our age, you know we grew up in, you know, our teenage years were in the nineties. And I do think at that point that uh boys and men gotta pass on a lot of things.

SPEAKER_02 24:14

Well, we just we just didn't talk about it. We didn't talk about it. We didn't we we we don't we don't talk about and and and for a lot of things we just we didn't talk about.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

Did your family did your mom talk to sex? Oh, absolutely not. Okay. I I was given a book. You were? I was given a book. It was a Christian book, and it basically like described anatomically what happened. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

Um and I don't blame my mom. I just I I'm in the same boat. Because my I don't think that's her parents never talked to her. That's just something you just did not do. And um and at that point in time, you know, when I was those formative years, my mom was f raising us on her own, my mom was fighting cancer, she was a teacher, like all these things were were happening to her that um I I was you know left to my own devices, and it's not her fault. And I my mom was anyone who knows my mom was freaking amazing rock star, and she had a really hard time for a certain period of life. And and I took full advantage of that because I was a stupid I almost cussed again. Oh, I didn't. I was a stupid teenager who didn't know any better, and alcohol was readily available, and I thought the only way, because I didn't have a father that I could find love with a man was to have sex, and so that's what I did. But I didn't tell anybody. You didn't tell anybody, and I and I would I would go and I've seen a therapist talking about my my daddy issues? Uh I almost said 100%. It's fine. It's fine, it's fine.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

But no, yes, but we did not in the 90s, we did not go see therapy. We didn't, and there was a and I know we've said it before, it's not the sweep it under the rug. This it wasn't just the mentality that we were getting from our parents, it's just what we felt societally like. Oh yes. We you can have problems, but you you deal with them. You don't you don't put your display, you don't put your stuff up, yeah. You don't put your stuff out on display.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

You put your you know, what they say, you know, pull on your put up, pull up your butt bootstraps and keep on my butt straps. That's true.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Please are blooper. Please pull your stuff up, pull your butt straps.

SPEAKER_02 26:31

Please that especially with this talk, oh, it's gonna be in it. Oh Lord, Lord, please help me. Please help me. Okay, so back, so back to it. No, that that was just the norm. No, no one talked about anything.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

Not only that, I would venture to say that anyone who I got close to that I shared my deepest, darkest secret with, there have been a few friends in life that know this about me. Um so many of them said, you're not alone. Yes. But everyone something like that happened to me too. It happened to me as a child, it happened to me um with a boyfriend, it happened to me with somebody, you know, you know, all this whole idea of that, especially in this, you know, and I I know we said we're talking about stigma and shame, we start talking about medication and we've gone under sexual shame. But to be honest, I think that for women it probably is one of the biggest stigmas we have of what does it look like to be a woman and what happens if you have made choices? What happens if choices were made for you that you didn't have a say in? And I look at this generation now, my our children's age, and they're not afraid to say anything. No. They are not afraid to say, Oh, you did that and that's bad, you know, and you call it out, we've got cancel culture and all of these things, and um on anything. Yeah. They see an injustice and they are they are they're calling it out immediately. And that just is not how we were raised. No.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

But I do have a question for you. Yeah. So did you talk to your kids about sex? I did. Same. Like depending on what age they were.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

So it started my oldest is 21. She's gonna love me sharing this. Um, just kidding. She's not there's nothing to worry about here. Um, but starting when my kids were in fifth grade, before they entered fifth grade, I always took them out. My husband took my son out before fifth grade.

SPEAKER_02 28:45

Yeah, I made I made Doug. Yeah, you take the boy one.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

Take the boy, I'll take the girls. Um I took the girls, and every year we would have a talk.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

Um, one time the sex talk and the Santa talk happened at the same time on it somehow. And I'm like, well, that's traumatizing. Oh my gosh. It's horrible. I know, I know. Well, I had said, um, you know, I'm t first of all, I'm telling her about her, you know, like really it was really just step by step. First it was talking about body changes. Yeah. And so I was talking about like you.

SPEAKER_02 29:19

The American Girl Doll book for girls. Yeah, we had it. It's fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Business of being you or being something becoming you, something of that nature.

SPEAKER_02 29:27

And um We use that both girls. So like here, here's the it come talk to me with questions, but so my oldest, I'm trying to tell her about like reproduction and periods and this kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 29:39

And I said, Well, you know, you're probably gonna encounter people who start their period this year, and this is what that is. Every year, if an egg is not fertilized, the body doesn't and your body's not gonna make a baby, you know, like it it releases the egg. And she goes, I am gonna lay an egg like a chicken every month. And I'm like, Okay, we're not getting it.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

No, but that's what my daughter said. What if I think why she's like, We're we're chickens? Because we have eggs. And I'm like, Well, when you put it like that, okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

Um you know what? My daughter's gonna feel so much better that she was not the only one. Not the only one. Not the only one. But so I I said, Well, uh, do you have any other questions? And you know, and she was like, Yeah. Santa real? Oh my gosh. Like, oh my gosh, I've ruined your childhood.

SPEAKER_02 30:34

Well, I was I would for all our conversations, it's been I've done them in the car. Because that way they don't have to look at me. Smart. They can look away because I had to focus on on driving, and it just makes it that's what I have realized. And so I think we were going to a baby shower, and I just flat out asked, I asked my oldest Belle. I'm sorry, honey. She's gonna be like, Mom, seriously. But I asked Belle, I said, Do you know what sex is? Do you know how I said, Do you know how babies are made? And she was like, Well, I think, but I I don't know. Yeah. And I'm like, Well, do you know what sex is? And she's like, like kissing? I'm like, okay, it's a little more. And then I was very I was like, there's a penis and there's a vagina, and the penis has to go inside the vagina. And she's like, that's disgusting. And I said, I know. Right now it is disgusting, but there's going to be a day. Yes. But I want you to hear it from from me first. And and that's kind of like very basic gist.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Every year we would add a little bit more to their maturity level kind of went on. Um and now I will say, I actually do have sex talks with my son. He's gonna love this. Oh. Oh, I should say, okay, so I found out find this out uh last week. Um I uh I said something to my son.

SPEAKER_02 31:57

The most fascinating part.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

We are really all over the place. All over the place. But okay, go ahead. I said something to my son about, you know, have a good day at school. And he goes, Oh, it's Monday. And I said, Yeah, it's month, it's Monday. He goes, I guess I'll be listening to your podcast. And I was like, You listen to my podcast? He goes, Oh. No, Max puts it on every Monday for my whole class to listen to.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

No, oh, don't listen to this one. Max, this is not for you. You we need to say that at the very beginning. This is not for you. Or maybe it is. I don't know. Maybe it is for you. Maybe they should listen to you.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

I will say now, I I am very happy to have a very open relationship with all of my kids to be able to have these conversations because the things that I I've experienced, the things that you have experienced, and the shame that I carried for so many years. And to be honest, not only did I just carry it in my formative years of trying to figure out what it was like to be a woman, um, I definitely carried it into my marriage of was me too. Was sex safe? Well, was sex okay? Am I dirty? Am I because my entire life, sex was like the that was the one sin I've told you, like with growing up in Utah, that is the one thing like you don't do. That's if you were to lay all of the sins out. Yes. Well, meanwhile, over here. Well, but you know, and so if I fell short of that in any way, and in my head, as I'm doing a purity ceremony with my dad, you know, when I'm like eleven, twelve, thirteen years old, you have this runny little I know that I'm like You're dirty in your mind. I'm dirty. I'm broken. But none of that's true. But of course, these are the things that you can I it I didn't have an outlet or uh a safe feeling that it was okay to talk about.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

And I think that's the biggest point, is no matter what what shame you feel, you have to talk to somebody. Yes. You have to you can't continue to keep pushing it down and pushing it down and pushing it down.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

There is nothing that has happened to you that God will not use for the good.

SPEAKER_02 34:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

And that and I know that's a really hard statement because really, really crappy things happened. It doesn't mean you're deserved. It doesn't mean it was uh a divine plan that you were hurt. But it's the hurt can be used for good.

SPEAKER_02 34:35

Yes. And it's not only that, that there is nothing that you have done that God doesn't still love you. God loves you no matter what. Right? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

Yes, I just I was trying to not say 100%.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

I know. I want to say 100%. But what's for me now, what's what's been fascinating is because of these talks with my kids, my kids now come to me and tell me things that I I would have never said to my mom.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

Yes. And I that's true on all three of my kids' account that I'm like saying. Whoa.

SPEAKER_02 35:12

And it makes me so proud and happy as a mom that they're coming to me. Like even like small stuff of of Faith who is struggling with um with friendships and and finding friends in in sixth grade year, where she's telling me this. Like I would never say that's my mom. And of course I'm trying to tell her my stories, and she's just looking at me like, yeah, I don't I don't care what happened to you in sixth grade mom. I'm like, thanks. But you know, that that's all I can do is reflect on what what I yeah going through. But also at the same time, I'm glad she's coming to me. I'm glad that all three of my my children come to me, even if it's you know, Torrin telling me at 1230 at night that he stuck a pin inside of his dryer and now all of his clothes are ruined. But I love that they that they call me and tell me this. Because I what we what I experienced of of holding everything in took a lot of it took a toll on me, took a toll on my marriage, took a toll on friendships and all on all all of the things, and that's not what I want for my for my kids. No.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

And I also think it's just it's really important now because I very early on felt disqualified from a lot in my life because I already knew I was tainted in some way. Or at least that's just how I felt. No church has ever told me I was that. No. Um no person, it's just the perspective of the reality of what we grew up with. Um, what society said about, you know, for me specifically growing up in purity culture, um, for you in trying to overcome, like had yeah, mistakes are made. You know, and and I and I shouldn't just say for you too because mistakes are made on my end too.

SPEAKER_02 37:03

Well, yes. I mean you're no part of me that was perfect. And I and and for for me, it was just realizing later in life that you know, of the I just called myself a whore. That's what I called myself all the time. And I owned it. And for a while I would it would be like a badge of honor because what else could I do? So because that's that's just who I was and what I did, and I would rather turn it around and be like, Yup, that's me, I'm the whore. But really, inside I I'm dying, but I didn't know what else to do because I with the with the exception of what happened to me when I was passed out, everything else I said yes to. Like everything else I was very I I I did. Yeah. Man, we went dark.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

We went dark.

SPEAKER_02 37:55

We tried not we tried not to. I but you know what? I'm gonna say this is not dark.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

Because actually the truth is, the truth is of the matter, that's the problem. These words Yeah. And that's the stigma that we're talking about. These things that have been like the darkest secrets in our life, this is a platform to bring them to light.

SPEAKER_02 38:14

I h I've been married for 23 years, and my husband does not know that happened to me.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

I'm 45 years old and I've never told my mom the thing that made me feel most broken.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

Man. And we're sitting here talking about how how do we get rid of shame and we still can't get rid of it. We're still freaking dealing with it. We know, but it is Which is so frustrating too. Because you think that we we know because we we know we're we're not just forgiven, but we know we have a God who loves us no matter you know what. And we still hide uh things because we're still fearful of being judged of um and and and being judged by people, yes, it's being judged by people, but it's also the shame because I think not telling Doug, not telling my husband this is because it's the f I I'm I messed up. Yeah. And it's not my fault, yes, but I still can't believe I let that happen to me. And so there's just an embarrassment.

SPEAKER_00 39:19

I'm gonna change your language there because this was not something you let happen.

SPEAKER_02 39:23

Uh yeah, I know. That and that's my and that's my issue. I still I s clearly I'm still dealing with it.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

And I would say that in both of our former professions and also just as friends of other women or men. Do we ever it happens to everybody? You know. Um I know that I have counseled people through who've been through similar things. Yes. And not once have I ever said, well, you shouldn't have put yourself in that situation. No, never, because it's not once did we ever say, you know, but it's different when it's ourselves. I the negative self-talk of we should just be able to feel better. We should have just made a different decision. Uh I can name a thousand different decisions I should have made in life, but it wouldn't have changed that. No, it's true. And in specifically my situation and your situation, I I went to a birthday party. Yeah. I shouldn't I just had that I was just at a party. And and you and you you you were just somewhere. I was just at a party drinking. And that doesn't that a place where I felt that I was safe, which didn't give anybody permission. Yeah. There was no permission given.

SPEAKER_02 40:35

And also does not because I think it we feel like it makes us less than. Less than a woman, less than uh Yes.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

Less than a person of Christ, less than a wife, less than a friend, less than a ma like less than everything I grew up was and not and I the whole idea of saving myself from my husband someday and knowing like I have to tell him that I'm already broken.

SPEAKER_02 41:03

Did you tell your husband before you guys got married?

SPEAKER_00 41:05

I did.

SPEAKER_02 41:05

You did?

SPEAKER_00 41:06

I did. Although I just I mentioned it casually just and I did gave no details. Oh I would say maybe 15 years ago when I had a pretty active blog, um, I wrote an article about it. Okay. And I let him read it. And I was very descriptive. Um, it was therapeutic for me. And I said, Can I post this? And he said, You can. But I don't think you should. Oh. And this was not a shame thing. This was just part of what if somebody knows is part of our story.

SPEAKER_02 41:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

And I had to realize that part of even though he didn't grow up as a woman, obviously, like he still grew up under the same shame of religious stuff. He had the he had the same background that I did. And it was, well, I don't wanna I don't wanna have questions from my mom and dad. Oh. I don't want, you know, he works in a school. Like this is something that's out there. At this point, I was still in ministry. And and and I'm gonna be honest, if you worked in ministry 10, 15, 20 years ago, you probably had to fill something out saying that that didn't happen to you. Oh, you really? Yeah, why yeah. Okay. Uh I worked in m multiple churches and not the first one I don't remember having to fill that out. But on the second church that I worked for the majority of the time, that was um That you didn't have sex or that you weren't.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

Oh, that you weren't a yeah, there was Because we could I m I'm not even gonna get into that. Never mind. No, we're gonna be past that.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

But you know, if you're listening, it's that you think that if you've been a victim, you be might become a perpetrator. Oh I can't even I can't even And I'm not saying that these aren't things we're not even getting into all of these things, but I'm telling you this was That is so irritating. We're talking twenty years ago now for me. So you know, when kind of when this thing started, maybe beyond. Gosh. But these are these are things different now. Diff different now different now. Different now. Um so I guess as we are saying all of these things, whether you have a problem with alcohol, if you have something you've gone through, if you need to seek rehab, if you need medication for something, if you are experiencing anxiety, depression, if you have a secret shame of something that you have not been able to come forward with, let me just say this. When I was able to release some of these, every time I've been able to release some of this, and even more specifically, like even telling my mom, it was accepting a piece of forgiveness that I thought that I'd already had, that I absolutely didn't. There is this peace that as long as you're holding it in for yourself, you're never fully giving it to the Lord.

SPEAKER_02 44:23

Yeah. It's it's hard to give it to the Lord because you're still because it's the ugly. Yeah. And you don't want to give you so I mean too afraid to give God the ugly. He wants it. More so than he wants the beautiful. He wants the ugly.

SPEAKER_00 44:45

He could he could care less about anything performative that we do.

SPEAKER_02 44:48

I know.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

He cares about the scars. I yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

He So did you did not publish that article?

SPEAKER_00 44:57

I never published it. I never published it.

SPEAKER_02 45:00

But sometimes I think, because we're both writers, that we for us it is therapeutic to write. And I always have somebody I'm glad you have Matt. I have Doug and I have a really good friend of mine, um, Nancy, who I send all my articles to because sometimes I need a buffer. Because if something I'm I'm very rel I I write what's happening to me right now. And there was an article that I wrote that was happening to me right now that I sent, and she's like, Great article, but this is not something that you should publish.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

And I'm like, sometimes it's just not in the moment. Yeah. I think sometimes you just put those things in draft mode because they're not because this is just m it's just m my emotions spewing out spewing out, yes, all over the page.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

And I in in my mind, I'm like, oh, somebody else needs to see this. And and not everybody not it's not really meant for everybody, but it needed to get you needed to get it out. I needed to get it out and I needed to get it to somebody to read.

SPEAKER_00 46:03

You have you have your Nancy, I have a Leanne.

unknown 46:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 46:06

And uh we have joked throughout our I don't even know how long we've been friends. Um we were college roommates, but we always say, like, I just need to filter this theory before I go to anybody else. Like, I just need to like get my garbage out to formulate my thoughts before I take this to my husband, before I take this to my boss, yeah, before I take this to my my boyfriend, like my children. Like I just these are my unfiltered thoughts. And oftentimes it's just we just spew it out and it we don't even need it, it doesn't even need the corrective, like, well, maybe you should do this. It's just okay, you got it out, you heard it. Um maybe it needs to like be, you know, reworked.

SPEAKER_02 46:44

I've it or not at all. I have done that also with text messages and emails and sent it through Chat GPT and said, I need you to remove all emotional, oh smart feelings towards this. Like, I just need it to be because I just sometimes I'll just go spew and then chat GPT. But can you ever be like listen here?

SPEAKER_00 47:05

This is how it should be revised with taking all of the feelings and emotional. Imagine all the unfiltered garbage we put into chat BT chat GPT and we say make this better if we just use Jesus like that and just said here is our garbage. Okay, now you make me feel like crap.

SPEAKER_02 47:18

No, that's no, no, no, no. No, I'm just kidding. But yeah, I mean we're kind of preachy. Kind of preachy. Yes, we should have gone to Jesus. Jesus is always the answer. We know no no. I mean, but it's my my thought of too, because I do the same thing. Like five instead of like, yes, go to ChatGPT to fix an email, but also are you taking that to the are you taking that to Jesus? Are you taking it to God too?

SPEAKER_00 47:40

Yeah. Well, I and I would also say in the thing that I both of us should share, it's not that we haven't taken this.

SPEAKER_02 47:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

But we have not fully laid it down. We have not laid the shame portion down.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

Well, no, because well clearly I haven't because I don't never talk about this.

SPEAKER_00 47:55

You're getting closer.

SPEAKER_02 47:56

I'm getting yeah, I am getting close to looking I'm singing because that's when I get nervous. When I'm nervous that that I don't know how this is gonna go. And the haw flashes, I'm like, oh gosh. People uh and and for the elbow sweat. In my story, no, I'm not gonna tell you details. No, I'm not gonna tell you, no, because it none of it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It was twenty-seven years ago, and it's long gone. Except for in my mental side.

SPEAKER_00 48:26

It's the shame piece that we hold on to, the part that says we could have changed the outcome. And that could have been in this, this could have been any of the things. Yeah. It could be any of the sins. This just happens to be what ours are. Yeah. And I think if you're listening, I I'm gonna guess that this is something similar is maybe happened to you or someone you love. Even though I pray that it doesn't, because it's a horrible feeling.

SPEAKER_02 48:55

Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 48:56

It's a horrible feeling to have encountered it yourself as a child, as an adult. Uh some of you may have encountered this with your children, with someone you love, a family member. Um I can tell you that all of these they're extremely hurtful. But we have we have, you know, just we have a God who says, uh you don't have to own that.

SPEAKER_02 49:25

No, he w he wants us to lay it down at his feet. We just have to be willing to do it.

SPEAKER_00 49:32

I don't know why we do that with a microphone in front of us.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

I I don't know why, because I think it's it's hard to lay down the the shame and and the the regret at at at God's feet and and rip the band-aid open and say, here I am, here's all of my ugly, gory stuff that it's oozing out of me and asking God to to redeem it. Yeah. And he and he wants to and he will and he does.

SPEAKER_00 50:05

Yeah. So I think, you know, in the end, w the culture we were brought up in is put your best foot forward, you know, um, don't show your flaws. And so we've become experts at projecting a version of ourselves that is not just it's just not accurate. It's not real.

SPEAKER_02 50:24

And the how many people and that version nowadays for for our for our children's generation is Instagram. Yeah. Or, you know, TikTok or whatever, mainly Instagram, where they put the the best version of themselves on out, you know, for in social media for the world to see because that's what they want people to s to perceive them as.

SPEAKER_00 50:50

And there's things that we haven't shared with the people we love because we don't want that either. Yeah. Um But Lord, we lay it at we lay it at your feet, all of it. And I know we're not alone. This was n wildly different than the episode that we had planned.

SPEAKER_02 51:08

This is yeah, but sometimes God takes us where he wants us to go because somebody somebody out there needs to hear this. And I believe it.

SPEAKER_00 51:17

And maybe it's Doug.

SPEAKER_02 51:19

I'm gonna have to have a conversation with my husband.

SPEAKER_00 51:21

Oh, no. It honestly, it's it's it's all of us. And there's not I this may be the thing that we're we're struggling and dealing with today, but to be honest, if I rip through all of my my baggage and my junk, there's lots of things that I have held on to um to patch up my identity. Yeah. And I've got a lot of journaling to do. You got a lot of therapy. I do. I mean, I I think I I don't know if I said this in the past or not, but I like, you know, like when I'm doing my Bible study and when the Lord reveals things to me, I write it in my Bible. Um and that's when I say I'm journaling, that's what that looks like for me. Is just writing in the margins of my Bible and just putting it out there.

SPEAKER_02 52:03

Um For me, I just spew it out in an article. Whatever it takes. Whatever it takes. And what ma'am, sometimes I wait to write the articles until I have the happy ending story, because right now like with my latest opera, you know, one about there's no crying and a job hunting, I didn't finish it. I didn't write it until I had happy an ending. Sometimes I have to realize that there's not always a happy ending right away.

SPEAKER_00 52:34

That's that's real. That is real. I think we know the the as far as the ending of the book of the th of of life and things like the we do know that ending, but that doesn't mean that's what our what our life looks like.

SPEAKER_02 52:52

No. And there's a whole mess of a life in between from the beginning from birth until death.

SPEAKER_00 53:02

Aren't we so glad we actually know how it ends though?

SPEAKER_02 53:04

And it has nothing to do with Yeah, I mean I I am so glad that I know where I'm going when I when I die. And I I am grateful for that. I am grateful that when when I am standing in front of Jesus, he is not going to care about anything that I did other than did I love him with my whole heart? Did I love my friends and family? And did I tell other people about how awesome he is?

SPEAKER_00 53:42

Yeah, was I obedient.

SPEAKER_02 53:44

Was I obedient. And I think that's probably why we do this podcast is because in a weird, not weird, but in a way for us, it's us being obedient to God. Talking about the stuff that who else is gonna talk about this? I don't well, a lot of people do, but you know, for us.

SPEAKER_00 54:05

For us, she and I talked about these things.

SPEAKER_02 54:09

Yeah, not with a microphone in front of our body.

SPEAKER_00 54:10

Not with a microphone. Um but weirdly, I mean, our vibes attracted years back, yeah. Of just like, man, like two of the realist people who just aren't afraid to say things. And then even when we uncover, you know, deeper and deeper levels of friendship and this, like, we still uncover like, man, there's so many layers we haven't peeled back. No. Not with each other, not with our spouses, not with our friends, not with our family. Not even with ourselves. Not even with ourselves. So that's the obedience of doing this thing that God asks us to do is as much for us as it is for you guys.

SPEAKER_02 54:49

Yeah. I want one, I want both of us to know that we're not walking alone in this. Yeah. And I want those who are listening to know they're not alone. Yeah. And whatever they're going through, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:08

Well, uh, I'm gonna end this in the wise words of Casey Bryant. Oh, you know, um, if you need assistance, if you need help, if you need uh if you need meds to get over, you know, a hump, if you need counseling, if you need a friend, you should pull yourself up by your butt straps.

SPEAKER_01 55:28

Oh, that's gonna be a phrase now. Casey Bryant butt straps. Jesus Pete.

SPEAKER_00 55:35

We love you. Thank you for spending an hour of a week with us. Have a great week.

SPEAKER_01 55:39

Bye.